What do bubble-tea pop-ups and free iPhones have to do with one of Canada’s fastest-growing fintech apps? In this episode of Let’s Talk Ads, Admiral Media CEO Andre Kempe sits down with Natasha Saviuk, the Growth Director who helped Wealthsimple 10× their assets under management by turning bold brand moments into viral acquisition loops.
What do bubble-tea pop-ups and free iPhones have to do with one of Canada’s fastest-growing fintech apps? In this episode of Let’s Talk Ads, Admiral Media CEO Andre Kempe sits down with Natasha Saviuk, the Growth Director who helped Wealthsimple 10× assets under management by turning bold brand moments into viral acquisition loops.
🎧 Press play to learn:
Timestamps:
00:01:17 - 00:02:36
Natasha’s Role & WealthSimple’s Mission
00:02:37 - 00:07:15
Incentives as a Growth Strategy
00:07:16 - 00:11:37
Why Incentives Work for High-Net-Worth Users
00:11:38 - 00:14:40
Building Winning Incentive Campaigns
00:14:41 - 00:20:31
Impact on Paid Social & CAC
00:20:32 - 00:27:26
Neuroscience → Marketing: Natasha’s Career Path
00:27:27 - 00:33:26
Memorable Failures & Lessons
00:33:27 - 00:42:15
Scaling Growth via Campus & Referral Tactics
00:42:16 - 00:49:01
Team Structure & Cross-Functional Growth
00:49:02 - 00:50:18
Closing Remarks
Connect & Subscribe
• Looking for a Full Funnel Digital Marketing Agency, specialized in mobile growth? Contact Admiral Media
• Follow Natasha on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natasha-saviuk/
• Got growth questions? Ping Andre on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/admiral-andre-apps-growth-marketing/
• Never miss an episode—hit ★ Follow on Spotify and drop us a rating!
1 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,440 Welcome back to Let's Talk Ads.
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My name is Andre,
CEO of Admiral Media.
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And today we are strapping a jetpack
to our growth playbook, because
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sitting across from
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me is Natasha Saviuk.
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She's the growth director of
WealthSimple, WealthSimple, sorry for the
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tone breaker here.
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But if you haven't heard about
WealthSimple yet, it's Canada's largest
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fintech.
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They have approximately 3 million
clients, if I'm not mistaken, at a 5
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billion valuation
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and more than 1,500 employees.
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So it's really big.
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Natasha is the marketer who scaled
paid spend during a crypto winter,
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doubled engagement
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while everyone else cried, oh, iOS
14, the apocalypse, and says CAC is
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a vanity metric.
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But even more so, and this is a
super interesting part of her life.
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For me, Natasha
has a PhD in neuroscience.
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And I wonder how this transition
to growth marketing happened, but
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also how this background
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may help in leading
a big marketing team.
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So I would hand it over to Natasha,
maybe give a quick intro about
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yourself.
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Thanks, Andre.
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I'm happy to be here.
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So like you said, I'm Natasha,
and I lead growth at WealthSimple,
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specifically user
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acquisition, cross-sell, and retention.
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At WealthSimple, our mission is
to help Canadians achieve financial
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freedom.
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And we do that through a suite of
financial tools like buying stocks
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commission-free,
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a managed invest portfolio where
you can have a diversified portfolio
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managed for you for
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a low fee.
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Naturally, we have crypto, we have
a high interest checking account,
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and to tie it all
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out, we have tax.
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And as a business, we really care
about increasing our market share,
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as well as increasing the
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share of wallet
with our customers.
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And incentives have been a really
effective way for us to do that.
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So I'm excited to share more
about that with you today and our
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listeners.
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And a bit more about me outside
of work, I really enjoy cooking.
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Well, actually, I really enjoy
eating, but cooking is kind of just a
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means to an end
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there.
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I really like running as well.
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I just completed my fifth marathon
in Brighton, England a couple weeks
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ago.
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And I'm a pretty
creative person, too.
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So I really like sewing
and painting and things like that.
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And as you can probably
tell, I have two cats.
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Very cute.
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Yeah, the title today is how to
save on pay social with incentives.
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Maybe you can elaborate
a little bit what that means.
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What do you understand under
an incentive when it comes to app
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marketing or marketing
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in general?
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Yeah, definitely.
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So we've used all
types of incentives.
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But most recently, what's worked
really well for us is cash incentives
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and physical incentives,
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most particularly Apple devices
like free iPhones, free MacBooks.
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And on the acquisition and
consolidation front, one thing that's
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worked really well for us
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is when we give our clients a carrot,
like a percentage match of their
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assets or a free
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iPhone if they consolidate their
assets with WealthSimple and move
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over their accounts
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to WealthSimple.
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So those are the types of incentives
that we see really work for us.
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And the types of behaviors that
when we incentivize them lead to
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really good business outcomes
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without too much gamification or
poor users that you're bringing into
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the ecosystem.
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Okay, understand.
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And how did you
use that in your acquisition?
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Like, did you just offer to everyone,
hey, you get a free MacBook when
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you join the app?
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Or I can imagine that's a quite
expensive acquisition methodology.
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For sure.
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Well, when it comes to
the Apple promo, we ran that in Q4.
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And actually, it's been one of
our most successful promos to date.
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And the way that it worked is
that you had to bring in a certain
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amount of assets in
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order to access
or to get a certain reward.
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So the way that the Apple promo
is structured more specifically is
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that you would be able
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to choose between an iPhone or a
MacBook, and the tier of the device
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increased with
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how much you brought.
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So if you had 100k, you would get
an iPhone 16 or just a MacBook Air,
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300k, it'd be a
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MacBook Pro or iPhone
16 Pro, and so on.
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The last year was 500k,
you get a more premium device.
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And so we do that.
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And in addition
to that, we have a hold period.
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So you have to move your money, but
you have to keep it for, you know,
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12 months, 24 months,
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depending on the
specific promo.
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And with those two things together,
sure, the value per incentive is
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expensive, but
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the value per conversion that we're
getting is actually quite high.
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So the unit economics
work out quite well.
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Oh, nice.
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Okay.
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But it means like, I had to have
like 100k in assets that I just
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connect or move over
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to WealthSimple.
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And this is interesting to me,
because I would expect like, just from
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the gut feeling that
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a user who has already more than
100k in assets, doesn't really care
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to get a free
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iPhone or something.
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Is it something you knew, because
of your background, maybe that this
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will definitely
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work?
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Or is it, I mean, the neuroscience
background, that people will always
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ask for something
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for free, no matter
how rich they are?
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Or was it just like, hey, let's
try that and see what happens.
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It is.
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It's one of those
things that was surprising to me.
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And I think that even internally,
there was a lot of skepticism.
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So the first time we did this,
it was actually with free AirPods.
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And exactly what you said, people
were like, if I'm rich, why would I
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care about AirPods?
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I could just go buy AirPods.
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And at the time, the way that the
promo was structured is you had to
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move something like
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$40,000 to get a
free pair of AirPods.
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And up until this point, we were
doing kind of smaller incentive
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campaigns, so on so forth.
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So this was the first time that
we're like, we're going to give you
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something that's worth
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300 ish dollars,
and you have to move 40,000.
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And what we noticed
is that it worked, basically.
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So we saw a lot of people participating,
maybe less people in total,
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but because the average
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value per conversion was so high,
our campaign was way more successful
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than anything we'd
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done in the past.
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And so that's what really allowed
us to kind of have that aha moment
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that if we focus on
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the average value per conversion,
we can really scale incentives as a
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channel.
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So obviously, how do you up
the ante from AirPods, it's with an
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iPhone, from an iPhone,
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with a MacBook,
so on and so forth.
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So we've been really
able to scale in that way.
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But again, it's something that was
kind of surprising to us that the
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physical item would
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be so effective.
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But I guess there's something to
it, too, that at the end of the day,
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buying a new pair
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of AirPods is kind of an annoying
thing, it's just expensive enough
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that it's irritating
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to you.
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So if you get it
for free, why not?
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Interesting.
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I would never expect
that, to be honest.
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I mean, most of the things that I
see happening in Europe or something
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is maybe you can win
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a pair of AirPods or something, but
not like that if I'm giving access
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to data or giving
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access to my financials, that I'm
then definitely getting something.
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So it was structured this way that
everyone who connected this amount
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of assets would
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get that.
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It was not a win
something in case.
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Okay, I understand.
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Exactly.
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So you meet the criteria, you are
qualified, and then you get your
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reward.
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Did you run this across the entire
user base for all new customers who
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sign up, they get
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this?
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Or did you limit this to a certain
acquisition channel, like only
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Facebook acquisition was
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getting this incentive?
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So we run it for everyone.
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On the paid side, it
tends to be more a lead gen place.
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So trying to acquire new clients
who maybe the incentive is the hook
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to get them to come
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to WealthSimple.
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But it works extremely effectively
with our own client base as well.
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And what's surprising is that we've
run now, you know, more than half
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a dozen campaigns
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like this.
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And we see that there's still so
much potential to tap into in our
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existing client base.
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But we're getting better and better
at kind of that lead gen side of
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things and acquiring
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new users and using incentives for
attracting high quality clients to
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the business.
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That's very interesting.
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So we've managed a couple of fintech
apps that also do connect your
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bank accounts, connect
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your portfolio, whatever things,
but they've never advertised
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something like that.
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So super interesting
that this actually works.
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They work in very
different markets, not Canada.
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But typically, you're having to
transfer your account to WealthSimple,
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so you're moving your
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entire assets over, it's not just
connecting your bank account or your
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outside portfolio,
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you're actually consolidating.
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And just to give you a sense of how
well it's worked, I think at this
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point, we've like
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10x'ed the monthly assets that we
bring into the business compared to
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maybe two years ago
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when we started.
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So just the scale at which it's
worked and allowed us to grow our
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incentives is astronomical.
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And it's just had a huge impact
on the business and scaled the
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velocity at which we were able
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to grow our assets
under management at the company.
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Oh, super impressive.
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I'm blown away by that.
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I mean, the typical marketer
would just say, hey, I need a new
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creative and hopefully I'm
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getting improving
my CAC by 0.5, whatever, right?
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But 10x'ing is a
very rare case.
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Yeah, it's just, if you look at
the baseline metrics, you can very
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clearly see where on
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the chart we started to do incentives
and it just has that, you know,
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that nice hockey
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stick chart that you like
to see when it comes to our assets.
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So it's been a really
impactful channel for sure.
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Interesting.
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Did you see something
like virality connected to that?
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Like once you started it, that
suddenly there was a higher K-factor,
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lots of more people
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00:09:51,380 --> 00:09:55,220
coming in because
other people were talking about it?
238
00:09:55,220 --> 00:09:59,477
Or was it really just those people
that saw the promo connected, sent
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00:09:59,477 --> 00:10:00,460
their assets to
240
00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:01,460
you?
241
00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:03,380
What can you say about that?
242
00:10:03,380 --> 00:10:04,780
It's interesting
that you ask that.
243
00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:09,070
So definitely whenever we run
a promotion, we see an uptick in
244
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referrals of these high
245
00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:12,100
net worth clients.
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00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:16,137
And what we've seen is actually
if we're able to tie our referral
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incentive to whatever's
248
00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:21,768
in market for the promo, we're
able to scale that referral kind of
249
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word of mouth even more.
250
00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:28,086
So one example, again, going back
to this Apple promo that we recently
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ran, naturally
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00:10:28,780 --> 00:10:31,750
for existing clients who have all
their assets at WealthSimple, it can
253
00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:32,740
be a bit frustrating
254
00:10:32,740 --> 00:10:35,644
that they can't participate because
all their money is already here
255
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and other people are
256
00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:37,860
getting these free iPhones.
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It feels unfair.
258
00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:44,326
And so one thing that we did is
we set up a referral program where
259
00:10:44,326 --> 00:10:45,420
clients could, by
260
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referring two or four
or six friends, access the promo.
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00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:54,820
And for us, the unit economics
worked out because the cost to on the
262
00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:56,100
lead gen side kind
263
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,300
of works out in a similar way
as if we were paying it out as a
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referral bonus.
265
00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,340
So the math kind of works out.
266
00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:05,645
And what we saw is that when
we did that, we were able to really
267
00:11:05,645 --> 00:11:06,220
massively increase
268
00:11:06,220 --> 00:11:07,340
the number of referrals.
269
00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:10,430
So we're kind of like tapping
into that behavior that people are
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00:11:10,430 --> 00:11:11,460
already doing when there's
271
00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:14,678
a promo in market, they'll share
it with their friends, they'll tell
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them to join the company
273
00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:17,580
to participate.
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00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:19,937
When we were able to find the right
incentive, which in this case is
275
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like you can get an
276
00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:26,263
iPhone too, we really, really
accelerated the growth of clients that
277
00:11:26,263 --> 00:11:27,260
we're referring
278
00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:29,500
high net worth people
to participate.
279
00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:30,500
And where's the limit?
280
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:31,500
What do you think?
281
00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:35,860
And to which point
will people do such thing?
282
00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:37,620
Or do you reach the limits?
283
00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:41,876
Let's say someone who has 500k
on the bank account would probably
284
00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:42,940
never be interested
285
00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:44,420
in such a promo.
286
00:11:44,420 --> 00:11:48,732
Do you mean in terms of an individual
person or our client base as a
287
00:11:48,732 --> 00:11:49,020
whole?
288
00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:50,620
No, individuals.
289
00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:54,715
What's interesting is that we,
so we have a lot of different promo
290
00:11:54,715 --> 00:11:55,660
structures and certainly
291
00:11:55,660 --> 00:11:58,260
different people are motivated
by different types of things.
292
00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:02,452
So another thing that works really
well for us is a percentage match
293
00:12:02,452 --> 00:12:03,420
where for instance,
294
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we'll give you 1% of the value of
the assets that you bring over to
295
00:12:07,231 --> 00:12:07,740
WealthSimple.
296
00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:10,806
And we see that with those types of
promos, we actually have to set an
297
00:12:10,806 --> 00:12:11,420
upper bound to
298
00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:15,600
like not have the finance team
murder us basically, because some
299
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,500
people will move like millions
300
00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:19,900
of dollars at a
time to participate in the promo.
301
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,333
Naturally, like we have salespeople
and BDRs that are involved in the
302
00:12:23,333 --> 00:12:23,620
process.
303
00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:26,451
If you're moving that much money,
you for sure want to, you know, talk
304
00:12:26,451 --> 00:12:27,260
to a human and
305
00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:31,020
not just do the
entire process on an app.
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00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:34,068
But there doesn't seem to really
be an upper bound in terms of how
307
00:12:34,068 --> 00:12:34,940
much people are willing
308
00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:38,260
to transfer when
you have the right incentive.
309
00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:39,500
Interesting.
310
00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:43,596
And coming back to the original
title, like saving on paid social
311
00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:44,620
because you're doing
312
00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:46,780
incentives, did
you see such an effect?
313
00:12:46,780 --> 00:12:51,500
Like did you need to spend
less on Meta and other channels?
314
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:57,160
Or was it just improving
the metrics a lot at the same time?
315
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,210
So that you spend the same maybe,
but you've just got a ton more users
316
00:13:01,210 --> 00:13:01,480
in?
317
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,760
So it really depends.
318
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,440
Earlier on in our business,
we would use incentives in our ads.
319
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,893
So for instance, one thing that
works really well is if you sign up,
320
00:13:10,893 --> 00:13:11,880
you'll get a free
321
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,120
stock.
322
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,200
That's something that was really
popularized by Robinhood in the US.
323
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,280
It worked really
well for us too.
324
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,872
And what we saw is that when we
gave clients an incentive to join,
325
00:13:22,872 --> 00:13:23,200
counterintuitively,
326
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,520
it actually makes your ad
costs go down and your cax go down.
327
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,290
And so ultimately, you net out
spending less per client, even though
328
00:13:30,290 --> 00:13:31,520
you're kind of signing
329
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,400
up upfront to give them money.
330
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,920
But where we're at now in our
marketing maturity maybe is that
331
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,760
incentives are so effective
332
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,712
for us that it's way more effective
than any kind of app install ads
333
00:13:44,712 --> 00:13:45,560
that we run.
334
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:50,232
Naturally, we're still doing a lot
of lead gen, both through referrals
335
00:13:50,232 --> 00:13:51,400
and through social
336
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,080
channels and search and whatnot.
337
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,930
But because incentives are so
effective for us, we're actually not
338
00:13:57,930 --> 00:13:59,680
spending as much on
339
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:04,240
paid app install ads as we maybe
would have in another circumstance.
340
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,005
And incentives are allowing us to
attract such high quality clients
341
00:14:07,005 --> 00:14:07,760
that we're able
342
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,320
to actually drive our business
metrics in a more significant way.
343
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,493
And an interesting kind of
pivot in our business is that we're
344
00:14:14,493 --> 00:14:16,080
focusing a lot more on referrals
345
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,080
now.
346
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,373
So again, a lot less on the traditional
app install paid social and a
347
00:14:21,373 --> 00:14:22,600
lot more on the
348
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,743
channels where we're giving that
marketing spend directly back to our
349
00:14:26,743 --> 00:14:27,120
client.
350
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,880
And so far, it's
worked really well for us.
351
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,880
And maybe let's
jump a little bit back.
352
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,632
I'm talking about your background
in neuroscience to now being the
353
00:14:36,632 --> 00:14:38,360
growth director in Wealth
354
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:39,600
Simple.
355
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,320
What sparked your
interest in that field?
356
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,600
How did it happen
that you changed?
357
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:44,600
Yeah.
358
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,240
So it's definitely
not the typical career path.
359
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,080
I took a bit of a circuitous
route to get to where I am now.
360
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,703
But well, how it all started is
probably like a lot of people, my
361
00:14:54,703 --> 00:14:55,480
parents wanted me
362
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,000
to be a doctor.
363
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,080
And so when I was doing my undergrad,
I decided that it'd be great for
364
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,440
my resume if I joined
365
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,000
a lab.
366
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,162
And it ended up kind of backfiring,
I guess, on my parents, because I
367
00:15:07,162 --> 00:15:07,840
liked doing research
368
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,384
so much that I stayed in that lab
and I kept working at it until I
369
00:15:12,384 --> 00:15:13,520
actually got a PhD.
370
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,527
The one thing about research, though,
is that the pace was not really
371
00:15:17,527 --> 00:15:18,760
aligned with how I
372
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,240
am and my personality.
373
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,236
In research, you can spend your
entire career just pursuing one
374
00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:25,600
question.
375
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,337
And in the end, how much influence
you'll have had in the world of
376
00:15:28,337 --> 00:15:29,120
science is kind of
377
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,440
TBD.
378
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,397
Whereas in growth and in business,
like you know this, if it doesn't
379
00:15:34,397 --> 00:15:35,080
work, you'll know
380
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,460
right away and like you
won't live another day, basically.
381
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:43,376
So that kind of pace of feedback
is much more aligned to me and what
382
00:15:43,376 --> 00:15:44,360
keeps me going.
383
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,280
And so towards the end of my
PhD, I actually started a business.
384
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,320
And that's where I
got my first exposure to marketing.
385
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,080
I worked on it for
about two years.
386
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,922
Ultimately, it didn't work out, but
it's what made me realize that I
387
00:15:55,922 --> 00:15:57,400
kind of had a knack
388
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,800
for growth.
389
00:15:58,800 --> 00:15:59,800
And so yeah, from
there, I worked for...
390
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,800
What kind of company was that?
391
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,393
Yeah, it was a company that was
doing made-to-measure clothing for
392
00:16:04,393 --> 00:16:04,720
women.
393
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,282
If you know Indochino in the US,
it was intended to be the female
394
00:16:10,282 --> 00:16:10,680
equivalent.
395
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,962
And what's interesting there
is that at the time I was living in
396
00:16:14,962 --> 00:16:16,280
Montreal, and AI was
397
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:21,290
really starting to boom in Montreal
specifically, startups were
398
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:22,960
becoming really glamorous.
399
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,840
And what I thought I could do...
400
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,400
And I also have
a background in sewing.
401
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,500
I've been making my own clothes
since I'm a teenager, basically.
402
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:32,000
And so what I thought
I could do is...
403
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,800
Maybe I won't get into the details,
but I had a hypothesis that you
404
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:35,400
can use machine
405
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,320
learning to produce
made-to-measure clothing at scale.
406
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,063
And it worked to a degree, but that's
obviously hard to prove and even
407
00:16:43,063 --> 00:16:44,400
harder to do when you
408
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,920
have no clue what you're doing.
409
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,320
I still think it worked, but it
didn't work out at the time for me.
410
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,320
So yeah.
411
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,320
When was that?
412
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,320
It was in like 2016, 2017.
413
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,320
Oh, okay.
414
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,320
It's still early
with machine learning stuff then.
415
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:01,320
Yeah.
416
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:02,320
But it was all the rage.
417
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,635
And subscription models too were
all the rage then, but I couldn't
418
00:17:04,635 --> 00:17:05,600
figure out how to make
419
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,880
that work for my business.
420
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,877
Maybe if you wanted a suit every
month or something, it could have
421
00:17:11,877 --> 00:17:12,800
gotten into work.
422
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,800
If you marry every
month, then maybe.
423
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:15,800
Yeah, exactly.
424
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:22,024
Before I ask you more about the
neuroscience background and how you
425
00:17:22,024 --> 00:17:23,360
incorporate this into
426
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:27,100
marketing, can you quickly elaborate
what is neuroscience so that we
427
00:17:27,100 --> 00:17:28,120
all have, let's
428
00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:32,800
say, a very basic understanding
of what we are talking about here?
429
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,000
Yeah.
430
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,423
So neuroscience is the study of
your brain and how it works to keep
431
00:17:40,423 --> 00:17:41,800
you alive, functioning,
432
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,911
thinking, learning, as well
as all the diseases that might be
433
00:17:44,911 --> 00:17:45,760
associated with that.
434
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,880
So what's going
wrong in your brain.
435
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,280
And in my research specifically,
I was investigating how mutations
436
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,920
that lead to autism in humans
437
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,917
affect learning and memory later
on in life, and also how it affects
438
00:17:58,917 --> 00:17:59,840
the development of
439
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,120
your nervous system
when you're born.
440
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,086
So a lot of my research was on the
lab, using live brain tissue, and
441
00:18:06,086 --> 00:18:06,880
trying to actually
442
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,800
measure the connections
between neurons themselves.
443
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:10,800
Wow.
444
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:11,800
Okay.
445
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:12,800
It's very hands-on.
446
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,800
Yeah, exactly.
447
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,800
Okay.
448
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,800
And how do you connect
this with marketing?
449
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,449
Do you use any of the experiences
or knowledge that you've gained in
450
00:18:24,449 --> 00:18:25,880
that field for your
451
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,440
day-to-day job now?
452
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,680
Yes, but not in the
way that people typically think.
453
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:37,124
And actually, maybe as an aside,
when I started working for my own
454
00:18:37,124 --> 00:18:38,800
company and doing marketing,
455
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,194
I had this idea that marketing
was brand campaigns, because that's
456
00:18:42,194 --> 00:18:43,120
what you typically
457
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,040
see in marketing
as an outsider.
458
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,040
And I was always so puzzled.
459
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,000
I was like, how do you actually
know that your campaign is working?
460
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,546
It seems like it's very expensive,
and you don't have a clear way to
461
00:18:53,546 --> 00:18:54,560
know if it works.
462
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,048
And then when I started doing
it, I realized that in marketing,
463
00:18:58,048 --> 00:18:58,920
especially digital marketing,
464
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,420
you have a ton of
data to work with.
465
00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:07,080
So marketing is actually a lot of
math and a lot of experimentation.
466
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,430
You have to be creative, but it's
as much of a science as it is an
467
00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:10,640
art.
468
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,693
And obviously, with experimentation
and measurement and all that, it
469
00:19:13,693 --> 00:19:15,220
was something I was really
470
00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:17,120
familiar with from
my time in the lab.
471
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,000
So that part of
it came really easily to me.
472
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,512
And then how it continues to influence
me is, again, maybe something
473
00:19:24,512 --> 00:19:25,640
that people don't
474
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,300
know is research
is incredibly competitive.
475
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:33,360
And so if you want to be a professor,
for instance, you need your
476
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:33,940
research published
477
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:36,240
in the top journals.
478
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,520
And how do you get your research
published in the top journals?
479
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,480
You need to have
really important discoveries.
480
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:44,480
And how do you do that?
481
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,648
Well, you actually have to test a
lot of different things and kind of
482
00:19:48,648 --> 00:19:49,840
figure out what's going
483
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,834
to be the project or the piece of
work that's going to be really novel
484
00:19:54,834 --> 00:19:55,500
and important.
485
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:58,831
And so when you're in that phase,
you're not being super rigorous and
486
00:19:58,831 --> 00:19:59,600
applying the perfect
487
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,920
scientific method.
488
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,530
You're just running tests every day,
just trying to figure out what's
489
00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:04,400
going to be the
490
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,160
thing that's worth
investing all that time in.
491
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,602
And only when you figure out what
your project is going to be do you
492
00:20:10,602 --> 00:20:11,520
really apply that rigor
493
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,680
and you get your statistical
significance and your sample size, so on
494
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,720
and so forth.
495
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,771
And the same is true in marketing,
right, where if you want to have
496
00:20:20,771 --> 00:20:21,640
impact, you have
497
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,880
to work on impactful things.
498
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,865
And that sounds so obvious, but I
can't tell you the number of times
499
00:20:27,865 --> 00:20:28,720
where people will
500
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,026
share results and they'll say it's
statistically significant, but then
501
00:20:32,026 --> 00:20:33,680
it's like a 2% lift
502
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,120
and it netted out to like
20 accounts or something like that.
503
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:41,830
So you kind of have to do that work
of, if this works, how impactful
504
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:43,400
is it going to be?
505
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,940
And use that to guide you on what
you actually choose to work on.
506
00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:52,067
And so at work, I'm probably a lot
less scientific and rigorous than
507
00:20:52,067 --> 00:20:54,040
you would expect when I'm
508
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,968
in the exploratory phase, because
I'm just trying to figure out what's
509
00:20:58,968 --> 00:21:00,200
worth my time.
510
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,720
I'm not so concerned
about running perfect experiments.
511
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:03,720
Interesting.
512
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,440
The work approach that I was always
following, even 10 years ago, I
513
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,640
was managing a team of
514
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,880
20 people in marketing.
515
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,203
And now as an agency, we are constantly
overloaded anyways, not enough
516
00:21:16,203 --> 00:21:16,480
resources.
517
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,020
So prioritization
of tasks is a big lever for us.
518
00:21:21,020 --> 00:21:24,052
And I was always preaching, if
it doesn't bring 20,000 additional
519
00:21:24,052 --> 00:21:24,880
users, don't touch
520
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:25,880
it.
521
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,880
Yeah, exactly.
522
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:27,880
Like what's the
minimum threshold?
523
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,880
Yeah, exactly.
524
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,173
If it doesn't meet the minimum bar,
don't even think about it, get it
525
00:21:33,173 --> 00:21:34,400
out of your mind.
526
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:35,400
Yeah.
527
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,400
You'd have been
a good researcher.
528
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,905
Somehow your story about you have
to test a lot of things and just do
529
00:21:41,905 --> 00:21:42,640
little experiments
530
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,792
and see what's happening with that
and then conclude, does it have an
531
00:21:45,792 --> 00:21:46,520
impact or something
532
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,870
also reminds me a little bit
of work, marketing tests and stuff,
533
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:53,400
definitely.
534
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:59,300
You just throw a couple of things
into the pond and see if it creates
535
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:00,480
some waves, right?
536
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,480
And then you really
follow up and dive deeper into it.
537
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:10,856
Can you share maybe one memorable
failure from your early days in
538
00:22:10,856 --> 00:22:12,200
marketing and what
539
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,600
you've learned from
it personally or professionally?
540
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,040
So that's such a
tough question.
541
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,120
Except from the
failed startup.
542
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,974
It's such a tough question because
I have so many failures and I kind
543
00:22:25,974 --> 00:22:26,800
of erase them
544
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:27,800
from my memory.
545
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,880
So it's actually
really hard to think of something.
546
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,184
Usually just like move on and don't
think about it twice, but maybe
547
00:22:36,184 --> 00:22:37,840
from one of my first
548
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,240
like official marketing
roles post startup.
549
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,140
So I was working for an overnight
oats company, direct to consumer.
550
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:50,703
And this was at the very beginning
of COVID where when people, you
551
00:22:50,703 --> 00:22:51,800
know, the grocery stores
552
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:57,820
were empty and there was so much
frenzy around, you know, making your
553
00:22:57,820 --> 00:22:59,200
store of supplies.
554
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,800
And I went to the grocery store
and there was a completely empty
555
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:02,000
shelf.
556
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,720
I took a photo of
it and turned it into an ad.
557
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,240
It's so striking when you walk into
a grocery store with completely
558
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,080
empty shelves, it really
559
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,600
gave that apocalyptic vibe.
560
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,408
So yeah, I took the photo and I
wrote some sort of copy on it to the
561
00:23:14,408 --> 00:23:15,080
effect of like,
562
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,840
buyer oats, they're shelf
stable and it's healthy for you.
563
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,129
It worked super well as an ad
actually, but it really upset people as
564
00:23:23,129 --> 00:23:24,040
well because you
565
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,400
can imagine people were freaking
out and very sensitive in that time.
566
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,664
So ultimately, even though it was
working really well, we decided to
567
00:23:32,664 --> 00:23:33,480
take it down.
568
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,920
And it makes sense, right?
569
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,102
Because sometimes we're so focused
on our metrics that we forget that
570
00:23:39,102 --> 00:23:39,800
there's another
571
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,840
person on the other side.
572
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,378
And I think in this case, you know,
when you're a smaller company,
573
00:23:44,378 --> 00:23:45,160
maybe it doesn't really
574
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,640
matter because you're just trying
to survive to the next month.
575
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,380
You can afford to take these bigger
risks, but naturally when you have
576
00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:55,520
a bigger scale,
577
00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,170
like let's say WealthSimple right
now, your brand matters a lot more
578
00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:01,720
and you don't want
579
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,440
to take one step forward
just to take two steps back.
580
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,080
So you have to bring a lot more
emotional intelligence to your work.
581
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,164
So that was definitely a lesson for
me about the balance that you have
582
00:24:12,164 --> 00:24:13,040
to strike between
583
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,293
performance and clicks, but then
remembering that there's humans on
584
00:24:16,293 --> 00:24:17,920
the other side of the
585
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760
screen that are
actually receiving your message.
586
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,760
So, yeah.
587
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,240
I'm not sure if
I would follow that.
588
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,600
I'm somehow on the other side,
like the more outrage, the better.
589
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,920
Like it gives me
additional reach and stuff.
590
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,891
And you will always have half of the
population that doesn't like you,
591
00:24:37,891 --> 00:24:38,120
right?
592
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,320
So like burning the brand.
593
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:42,680
Do you think scale
matters though?
594
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,160
Because I used to
think that too, right?
595
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,480
I was like, your
product is your brand.
596
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,520
It doesn't matter.
597
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,280
But then, at least in
Canada, the market's not that big.
598
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,760
And we reached a point where we're
spending like 3 million per month.
599
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,311
Every single person is seeing a
WealthSimple ad, you know, multiple
600
00:24:58,311 --> 00:24:59,280
times a day.
601
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,080
And I think that that started
to influence how people felt.
602
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,261
And maybe if they didn't like the
ads, maybe they felt more annoyed
603
00:25:07,261 --> 00:25:08,240
and stuff like that.
604
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,648
Or again, if the ad frequency was
too high, it would really irritate
605
00:25:11,648 --> 00:25:12,960
people in a way that
606
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,440
I just had never seen before when
I was working with smaller budgets.
607
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,512
I wonder, maybe too, you're working
with bigger markets, so you're not
608
00:25:19,512 --> 00:25:20,280
really reaching that
609
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,280
upper bound.
610
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,266
But I'm curious to know if that
influences, if like the size of the
611
00:25:24,266 --> 00:25:25,120
company and the amount
612
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:29,930
of spend influences your strategy
or you're like, no, we're doing
613
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:31,680
performance, like
doesn't matter.
614
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,720
The size of the
company 100% influences it.
615
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,941
Because from my experience, what
I've seen so far was always as soon
616
00:25:38,941 --> 00:25:40,240
as the company reaches
617
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,480
a certain point, there will always
be some brand marketer and this
618
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,560
person gets a lot
619
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,560
of power.
620
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,440
And from that moment onwards, you
just lose in performance marketing.
621
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,600
You have this constant struggle.
622
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,766
And you can't just do anymore what
you were used to do before, when it
623
00:25:55,766 --> 00:25:56,600
comes to performance
624
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,720
marketing and you
get your boundaries, right?
625
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:00,720
Which is good in one way.
626
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,280
On the other hand, it makes
life sometimes just more difficult.
627
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:10,345
And I guess brand models often have
difficulties explaining why this
628
00:26:10,345 --> 00:26:12,000
is necessary, right?
629
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:18,120
So why is it good that we are
not going the dark way, let's say.
630
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,640
But yeah, in general, I've
worked with many startups as well.
631
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,955
And I think you can always create a
little bit of outrage and negative
632
00:26:25,955 --> 00:26:26,880
comments on ads
633
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,381
and stuff, unless you see it's
really overtaking as one thing,
634
00:26:31,381 --> 00:26:32,200
obviously, right?
635
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,200
So there still needs to be some
people that like what you're doing.
636
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,960
And you usually see that by the
downloads, conversions, whatsoever.
637
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,356
But then the question still is,
do they really love that product,
638
00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:43,640
right?
639
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,160
Or is it just so,
okay, nice to have.
640
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,610
If they really love it and defend
it against the outraged people,
641
00:26:49,610 --> 00:26:50,760
amazing, then your job
642
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,760
is done, basically.
643
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:52,760
This is how I see it.
644
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,760
Oh, totally.
645
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,465
Actually, I have an example of an
ad that comes to mind that I want to
646
00:26:57,465 --> 00:26:58,160
share with you.
647
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,255
So exactly what you say, kind
of these meme ads are things that
648
00:27:02,255 --> 00:27:03,200
generates engagement and
649
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,178
just perform so well, but you want
it to have like some sort of value
650
00:27:07,178 --> 00:27:08,240
to the business and
651
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,400
not just be pure,
like rage bait.
652
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,352
An ad that we ran at WealthSimple,
I mean, we can't really do this as
653
00:27:15,352 --> 00:27:15,880
much anymore.
654
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,720
But when we started, we didn't
really follow the rules, I guess.
655
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,540
And so an ad that worked
really well was, it was a tweet.
656
00:27:24,580 --> 00:27:30,467
And on one side, you had a receipt
of a salad, like a really expensive
657
00:27:30,467 --> 00:27:30,860
salad.
658
00:27:30,860 --> 00:27:33,996
And it specifically said like, no
nuts, because there's a nut allergy
659
00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:34,780
and there's kombucha
660
00:27:34,780 --> 00:27:36,300
in the order, whatever.
661
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:39,933
Then on the other side, it was a
screenshot of a stock and the price
662
00:27:39,933 --> 00:27:40,660
of the stock.
663
00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:44,797
And then the headline of the tweet
was like, LMAO, I can't believe I
664
00:27:44,797 --> 00:27:45,980
just bought a stock
665
00:27:45,980 --> 00:27:50,380
for a lower price
than the salad that I purchased.
666
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:53,884
And then I did so many different
iterations, showing different stocks,
667
00:27:53,884 --> 00:27:54,840
this and that.
668
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,455
And then in the comments, it worked
so well, because people were like
669
00:27:57,455 --> 00:27:58,260
making fun of the
670
00:27:58,260 --> 00:27:59,260
nut allergy.
671
00:27:59,260 --> 00:28:01,914
They're like, well, yeah, but you
bought kombucha and that cost an
672
00:28:01,914 --> 00:28:03,020
extra, like people were really
673
00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:04,220
obsessed with the receipt.
674
00:28:04,220 --> 00:28:08,886
But at the same time, it really
emphasized the fact that you can buy a
675
00:28:08,886 --> 00:28:09,820
stock, you get
676
00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:12,680
started for very little, and you
can actually buy a stock for less
677
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:13,340
than your salad.
678
00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:16,300
And so if you think you don't have
the money, like you can just pivot.
679
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:17,300
Especially now.
680
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:18,300
Yeah, especially now.
681
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:25,130
That was one of our best ads that
we had had in a while, but it got
682
00:28:25,130 --> 00:28:27,140
shut down, as you can
683
00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:31,424
imagine, because, yeah, it's not
necessarily brand compliant, but
684
00:28:31,424 --> 00:28:31,900
effective.
685
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:33,900
So yeah, that was a good one.
686
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:34,900
Yeah.
687
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:38,918
I mean, at the end of the day, if
you really just follow performance
688
00:28:38,918 --> 00:28:39,780
marketing rules and
689
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:43,025
look for the clicks and engagement
and downloads and whatsoever, you
690
00:28:43,025 --> 00:28:44,500
will very often end up
691
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:48,140
with a half-naked
woman on the ad, right?
692
00:28:48,140 --> 00:28:52,085
And this is obviously something you
don't want to follow if you want
693
00:28:52,085 --> 00:28:53,300
to have a long-lasting
694
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:56,060
business and build
a brand in some way.
695
00:28:56,060 --> 00:29:01,305
And talking about more your view
on growth marketing and the success
696
00:29:01,305 --> 00:29:02,180
with WealthSimple,
697
00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:06,398
you've been multiple times in
the number one Canadian app store
698
00:29:06,398 --> 00:29:08,700
charts, had a lot of millions
699
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:10,700
of downloads there.
700
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:15,740
How did you get there, or how
did you get repeatedly into the top
701
00:29:15,740 --> 00:29:17,180
charts in the Canadian
702
00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:18,180
app store?
703
00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:21,913
Did you have a special trick there
that you created some viral ads or
704
00:29:21,913 --> 00:29:22,180
something?
705
00:29:22,180 --> 00:29:27,597
When I first joined WealthSimple,
I was working on a product called
706
00:29:27,597 --> 00:29:28,500
WealthSimple Cash.
707
00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:32,741
And that product definitely spiked
to number one in the app store a
708
00:29:32,741 --> 00:29:33,720
couple of times.
709
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,488
So I'll tell you how we went viral,
but I need to give you a bit of
710
00:29:36,488 --> 00:29:37,140
context on the product
711
00:29:37,140 --> 00:29:38,140
first.
712
00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:41,104
So WealthSimple Cash, when we launched
it, it was its own app, and it
713
00:29:41,104 --> 00:29:41,740
was designed to
714
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:45,380
be a peer-to-peer money-sending
app like Cash App or Venmo.
715
00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:48,930
And an app like Cash App or Venmo
is only really useful to you when
716
00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:49,640
you download it
717
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,482
if the people that you want to
send money to and your friends are
718
00:29:53,482 --> 00:29:54,580
actually on the app.
719
00:29:54,580 --> 00:29:58,162
And when I joined WealthSimple,
here I am, I have this app, but
720
00:29:58,162 --> 00:29:59,540
there's no users on the
721
00:29:59,540 --> 00:30:00,540
app.
722
00:30:00,540 --> 00:30:03,373
So how do you actually grow
it, and how do you grow an app that
723
00:30:03,373 --> 00:30:03,940
actually has utility
724
00:30:03,940 --> 00:30:04,940
to it?
725
00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:08,460
And the answer to
that is growing within a network.
726
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:12,684
There's this theory that if you
hit about 30% saturation within a
727
00:30:12,684 --> 00:30:13,740
network, your product
728
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:18,700
will continue to grow organically,
virally, and via word of mouth.
729
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:24,165
And so I had an app, and I had a
theory, and I figured that if I can
730
00:30:24,165 --> 00:30:25,380
reach a certain density
731
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:30,300
within a network, that the
growth would take care of itself.
732
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:34,962
And naturally, there's no tighter
network than a campus, so we focused
733
00:30:34,962 --> 00:30:35,740
our energies
734
00:30:35,740 --> 00:30:38,540
on growing our product
within campuses.
735
00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:42,577
And so when we first started,
naturally, we were doing ads, but you
736
00:30:42,577 --> 00:30:43,820
can imagine that with
737
00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:49,391
a 1% click-through rate, you're
never going to get to a 30% market
738
00:30:49,391 --> 00:30:49,820
penetration.
739
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:53,460
It's just not going to
lead to the density that you need.
740
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:56,225
And naturally, the smaller your
audience, the more expensive your CPMs
741
00:30:56,225 --> 00:30:56,980
and all that.
742
00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:59,020
It's just ads were not the way.
743
00:30:59,020 --> 00:31:03,300
And so we had to
try a bunch of different things.
744
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:07,460
And I'm curious if you can guess,
actually, what ended up working for
745
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:07,780
us.
746
00:31:07,780 --> 00:31:11,647
We needed a channel that had really
high reach and really, really high
747
00:31:11,647 --> 00:31:12,540
conversion rate once
748
00:31:12,540 --> 00:31:14,020
we did reach the people.
749
00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:15,020
Okay.
750
00:31:15,020 --> 00:31:18,900
And you said you need to have
a certain density in a network.
751
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:22,452
Would you then define the network,
in this case, really the campus,
752
00:31:22,452 --> 00:31:23,340
the entire student
753
00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:29,320
portfolio, or the student audience
on that campus, or did you break it
754
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,700
down even further?
755
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:33,340
No, the network
was the entire student body.
756
00:31:33,340 --> 00:31:37,340
So like the 30,000, 40,000 students
that were on a given campus.
757
00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:38,340
I see.
758
00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:39,340
Okay.
759
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:44,540
And how did you achieve it,
this density level, and how did you
760
00:31:44,540 --> 00:31:45,340
measure that?
761
00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:46,340
Yeah.
762
00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:50,270
So basically, the thing that
ended up working for us is actually
763
00:31:50,270 --> 00:31:51,580
giving students free bubble
764
00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:52,580
tea, basically.
765
00:31:52,580 --> 00:31:53,580
No jokes.
766
00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:54,580
Yeah.
767
00:31:54,580 --> 00:31:59,747
I never would have thought that
free bubble tea would be my primary
768
00:31:59,747 --> 00:32:00,940
growth channel, but
769
00:32:00,940 --> 00:32:03,340
it was for like
a good year or so.
770
00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:06,326
So essentially what we did is before
we'd go to a campus, we'd figure
771
00:32:06,326 --> 00:32:07,180
out what all the
772
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:09,100
most popular places
are for students.
773
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:11,961
We'd partner with those
businesses, and then we'd have like
774
00:32:11,961 --> 00:32:12,820
ambassadors there, A-frames,
775
00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:13,820
so on and so forth.
776
00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:18,100
We'd be like, if you become a
client, you get a free bubble tea.
777
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:23,020
And like the impression to
conversion ratio was like 80 or 90%.
778
00:32:23,020 --> 00:32:26,980
Pretty much everyone who came
across the offer would participate.
779
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:30,490
And then we paired that with referrals,
and naturally, once we got to
780
00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:31,300
a certain density,
781
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:33,867
people started to trust the product,
they saw it wasn't a scam, they
782
00:32:33,867 --> 00:32:34,460
got their free
783
00:32:34,460 --> 00:32:37,380
bubble tea, so they start
sharing it with their friends.
784
00:32:37,380 --> 00:32:41,540
And we actually started to go pretty
viral within group chats, because
785
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:42,580
people would participate,
786
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:45,578
and then they'd be hooking up their
friends with the offers and stuff
787
00:32:45,578 --> 00:32:46,040
like that.
788
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:51,260
And by using that, we'd get up
to like 70% of density in campuses.
789
00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:56,533
We really managed to take over the
campus entirely in a matter of like
790
00:32:56,533 --> 00:32:58,040
a month or two.
791
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,680
And at the time, it really
felt like we were everywhere.
792
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,580
So we would go to the campuses to
kind of see how our growth efforts
793
00:33:05,580 --> 00:33:06,560
are playing out.
794
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,945
And we'd see that, you know, for
the promos, there'd be lines around
795
00:33:08,945 --> 00:33:09,680
the block, we'd be
796
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,375
getting like thousands of students
per weekend just by giving them
797
00:33:12,375 --> 00:33:13,600
like free food and free
798
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,920
bubble tea and stuff like that.
799
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,698
And you'd go up to a student on
campus, and you'd be like, Hey, like,
800
00:33:18,698 --> 00:33:19,440
have you heard of
801
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,440
this app?
802
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,040
And they're like, Oh, yeah,
everybody's been telling me about it.
803
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,653
Everyone's trying to get me to
use the referral code, so on and so
804
00:33:25,653 --> 00:33:25,840
forth.
805
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,760
So like, clearly, we
had a pretty significant presence.
806
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,480
And at least within
the campus itself, we'd gone viral.
807
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,665
Though the times I guess I could
talk about the times that we went
808
00:33:37,665 --> 00:33:39,160
viral on the App Store.
809
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,570
It's not directly related to
our efforts on campus, but kind of
810
00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:45,040
similar situation, I suppose.
811
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,184
So, again, this was during COVID,
where people were not really doing
812
00:33:50,184 --> 00:33:51,440
much and influencers
813
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,800
on Instagram Live
had a really captive audience.
814
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,564
And we partnered with one comedian
in particular, just a local
815
00:33:59,564 --> 00:34:01,960
Canadian guy, but
he had an audience
816
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,320
of like 10s, maybe
hundreds of thousands of people.
817
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,960
And he promoted
us in one of his live streams.
818
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,247
And at the same time, we
were partnered with a couple other
819
00:34:10,247 --> 00:34:11,200
influencers that are kind of
820
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,925
in a adjacent space as him, who are
also sharing the referral code and
821
00:34:15,925 --> 00:34:16,600
talking about
822
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:17,600
the product.
823
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,320
And we saw that
that really like spiked our growth.
824
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,725
And then the people that were
being acquired were sharing their
825
00:34:23,725 --> 00:34:24,600
referral codes with each
826
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,600
other.
827
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,160
So they were now
we were growing that way.
828
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,880
And people started
posting on Twitter.
829
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,457
And what we did with Twitter
was, or at the time it was called
830
00:34:34,457 --> 00:34:35,480
Twitter, we were doing
831
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:36,640
these cash drops.
832
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,698
So whenever people would talk about
us on Twitter, we would DM them
833
00:34:39,698 --> 00:34:40,640
and be like, hey,
834
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:41,920
post a cash drop for us.
835
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,084
So the person would do a post and
say, like, drop your cash handle in
836
00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:46,640
the comments.
837
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,240
And the first however
many people are going to get cash.
838
00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:52,154
So we're literally there with our
phones, like sending money to these
839
00:34:52,154 --> 00:34:52,640
people's cash
840
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,400
handles in the in the thread.
841
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,560
And it just like it created such a
frenzy, everybody was like posting
842
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:00,200
about cash.
843
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,640
And like, we really
overtook this network.
844
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,540
And naturally, like download velocity
influences your ranking in the
845
00:35:06,540 --> 00:35:07,320
App Store.
846
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,382
So this is one example of
like, it kind of started with these
847
00:35:11,382 --> 00:35:12,320
influencers, people posting,
848
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,840
then we kind of
fed into the frenzy.
849
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,240
And we just had a huge spike in
downloads, which pushed us all the way
850
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:17,920
to number one
851
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,920
in the App Store.
852
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,360
Oh, I have so many questions.
853
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,880
The how much cash
did you provide to those people?
854
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,600
Like, was it $10?
855
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,200
We were sending
them like $1, $5, whatever.
856
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,480
So really micro, small amounts,
but we were doing it so much.
857
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,985
And I think that there was just such
a, maybe it was a combination two
858
00:35:37,985 --> 00:35:38,920
of the right audience,
859
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,960
but it just has such
a kind of frenzied effect to it.
860
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,242
And people were really hyped
about it and participating in these
861
00:35:46,242 --> 00:35:47,800
threads and the tweets
862
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,800
were going viral
and all of that.
863
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,368
So I remember PayPal was growing in
the same way they gave like a $20
864
00:35:53,368 --> 00:35:54,320
or something to when
865
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,628
if you invited your friends, and
they also grew like crazy at the
866
00:35:58,628 --> 00:35:58,960
time.
867
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,640
But I mean, this is like so long
ago, I would not expect that it still
868
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,560
works with even this
869
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,640
little money.
870
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,400
I guess it was then even less.
871
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,400
The referral bonus.
872
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,400
So it was structured in a way
that there was a referral bonus.
873
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,200
The referral bonus itself varied.
874
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,920
Sometimes it was five, sometimes
it depends kind of on the network.
875
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,400
We went up to like
$50 per referral.
876
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,496
But in the cash drops, so the part
on the Twitter thread, that's where
877
00:36:23,496 --> 00:36:24,160
we were sending
878
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,075
like smaller amounts, but it was
still enough to kind of create this
879
00:36:28,075 --> 00:36:29,280
buzz and frenzy and
880
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,600
people like wanting to get
the free money and stuff like that.
881
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,640
Yeah, nice.
882
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,830
And I guess with the cash drop, the
acquisition costs were then much
883
00:36:37,830 --> 00:36:39,120
lower than paid social,
884
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,560
I would assume.
885
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,520
Yeah, exactly.
886
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,538
And that's kind of the benefit even
just of referrals as a channel is
887
00:36:48,538 --> 00:36:49,400
that, you know,
888
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,280
you kind of have
control over the CAC.
889
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,320
You see the value of the
clients that you're bringing in.
890
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,920
So you have kind of pretty tight
control on your new unit economics.
891
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,792
With paid social, it's like
you give your money to Facebook or
892
00:37:01,792 --> 00:37:02,760
whatever platform and
893
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,790
you're kind of just hoping for
the best and that people actually
894
00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:06,800
convert, but you don't
895
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,120
always know what's
going to happen.
896
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,423
So that's definitely one of the
benefits that we see with incentives
897
00:37:11,423 --> 00:37:12,800
and one of the reasons
898
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,890
why we've really taken to kind of
scaling those types of channels like
899
00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:17,520
referrals or
900
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,280
you know, the free
iPhones and stuff like that.
901
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,929
Do you see such methods working for
other categories of apps or would
902
00:37:24,929 --> 00:37:26,360
you say this is
903
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:27,840
exclusive to Fintech?
904
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,120
It really depends.
905
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,612
And I should start by saying
that obviously we didn't invent
906
00:37:32,612 --> 00:37:34,200
incentives and a lot of
907
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,600
different types of business
leverage it in their own way, right?
908
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,360
It could be like a discount
or a promo code or a sign up offer.
909
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,320
So people use incentives in all
kinds of ways that are effective.
910
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,686
And just what makes it work for
us and what allowed us to bring it
911
00:37:48,686 --> 00:37:49,360
into our own
912
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,830
performance marketing stack is that
we actually treat it like a growth
913
00:37:52,830 --> 00:37:53,120
channel.
914
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,600
So it's subject
to incrementality.
915
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,742
It's subject to a strict payback
period and we really use all the data
916
00:38:00,742 --> 00:38:02,120
we have to run
917
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,360
it as effectively as possible as
if it was any other paid channel.
918
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,930
And what we see for us is that it
works really well when you're trying
919
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:10,120
to get a user to
920
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,400
overcome a step
that has a lot of friction.
921
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,854
So with students on campuses, it was
getting them to kind of trust the
922
00:38:17,854 --> 00:38:18,920
company and, you
923
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,920
know, sign up and join the app.
924
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,225
When it comes to consolidating,
moving your account over can be a bit
925
00:38:26,225 --> 00:38:27,320
of a tedious
926
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:27,574
process.
927
00:38:27,574 --> 00:38:30,880
It's not time consuming, but it's
just the type of thing that people
928
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,960
procrastinate and
don't really want to do.
929
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:33,934
It's a chore.
930
00:38:33,934 --> 00:38:38,155
So if you give them an incentive,
they kind of overcome that inertia
931
00:38:38,155 --> 00:38:38,480
of
932
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,712
maybe something that they wanted
to do or they've been thinking of
933
00:38:41,712 --> 00:38:42,520
doing but wouldn't
934
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:43,172
have done otherwise.
935
00:38:43,172 --> 00:38:46,000
And I mean, for us, if you move
your money sooner, that's great
936
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,058
because, you know, if you move
your money a year earlier, that's a
937
00:38:49,058 --> 00:38:50,000
year of revenue that
938
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,560
we can capitalize on.
939
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,440
And for the user, usually it's
better, too, because lower fees and
940
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,120
things like that.
941
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,360
So it's a bit of
a win-win from that perspective.
942
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,125
But you definitely want to find
actions that have high enough friction
943
00:39:02,125 --> 00:39:02,840
where, again,
944
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,406
if you're moving your account to
WealthSimple, it's something that
945
00:39:06,406 --> 00:39:07,120
people procrastinate.
946
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,200
They don't really want to do.
947
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,694
You don't see a lot of people who
are like moving their life savings
948
00:39:11,694 --> 00:39:12,400
around from one
949
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,240
bank to another.
It's high friction to do it.
950
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,840
But once you do do it,
it's a high retention conversion.
951
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,980
So if your business has a similar
like similar types of conversion
952
00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:24,240
that are really high
953
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:30,256
value but have kind of this maybe
inertia or they're just higher
954
00:39:30,256 --> 00:39:31,760
friction, those tend
955
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,284
to be really good things to focus
on when it comes to those bigger
956
00:39:35,284 --> 00:39:36,040
incentives that you
957
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:36,640
that you give.
958
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,274
I have a question about the logistics,
because you mentioned giving
959
00:39:40,274 --> 00:39:41,320
the money away was
960
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,520
sort of texting yourself or sending
money yourself, probably by hand.
961
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,840
I would assume you
didn't expect such a success.
962
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,045
And on the other hand, also
the bubble tea or the MacBooks and
963
00:39:52,045 --> 00:39:52,720
everything that is
964
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:53,720
physical goods.
965
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,160
How did you solve
that logistically?
966
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,130
So, well, the bubble tea, that
was a bit simpler because we were
967
00:40:01,130 --> 00:40:01,760
partnering directly
968
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:02,652
with the business.
969
00:40:02,652 --> 00:40:06,520
So we were just present at the
location, but the business itself was
970
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,160
making and distributing
the bubble tea.
971
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,520
So those events
were actually at the businesses.
972
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,005
But when it comes to Apple products
and stuff like that, that's been
973
00:40:16,005 --> 00:40:16,640
something that
974
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,400
we've had to build
infrastructure around.
975
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,767
So the first time we did it, it
was really scrappy, like involving
976
00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:24,000
type forms and trying
977
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,360
to match what people wanted, their
address and so on and so forth.
978
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,845
But now we've built a much more
robust process where all of it is
979
00:40:32,845 --> 00:40:33,120
productized.
980
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,400
There's an operations
team that helps handle it.
981
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:41,771
And it's a lot more robust than the
V1 version of the Apple campaign
982
00:40:41,771 --> 00:40:43,120
that we ran.
983
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,860
Became a product itself, obviously,
then like probably with an own
984
00:40:46,860 --> 00:40:48,360
team that has to go
985
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,080
over maintenance
and improvements.
986
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,760
Do you run the conversion rates
optimization on these things as well?
987
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,480
Like do you have a specialist
who's looking into make the button
988
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:58,400
bigger or smaller,
989
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:01,560
optimizing these
kind of things?
990
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Yeah, so when we proved out that
incentives would be a successful
991
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,440
channel for us, that
992
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,720
unlocked design and product
and engineering resources for us.
993
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,520
And now we work as a cross-functional
team that's very embedded.
994
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,346
So every promo, we try to add
improvements, both from learnings of a
995
00:41:20,346 --> 00:41:20,960
previous promo.
996
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,502
So let's say the customer service
team will tell us what were the
997
00:41:24,502 --> 00:41:25,320
biggest complaints and
998
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,000
the biggest issues
on the client side.
999
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,286
But then on the design side, what
we try to do is add any improvements
1000
00:41:31,286 --> 00:41:32,080
that we can.
1001
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,530
And for example, something that I
didn't expect, because I was kind of
1002
00:41:36,530 --> 00:41:37,080
thinking, you
1003
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,685
know, the cash is doing the talking,
like how much can the UX really
1004
00:41:40,685 --> 00:41:41,200
influence the
1005
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,600
conversion of these campaigns?
1006
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,680
And it turns out that it
actually makes a huge difference.
1007
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,171
So a lot of the improvements have
actually been one of the levers by
1008
00:41:49,171 --> 00:41:49,920
which we've been
1009
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,160
able to be more and more
successful with every campaign.
1010
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:56,757
And one thing that worked really
well is adding countdown timers to
1011
00:41:56,757 --> 00:41:58,440
our, so a lot of
1012
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,457
our promos are built in-app, so
adding countdown timers really helps
1013
00:42:01,457 --> 00:42:02,280
both on the
1014
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,480
marketing card and on the breather
model that pops out itself.
1015
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,240
You kind of show
time counting down.
1016
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,000
We saw that a lot fewer people missed
the deadline and people kind of
1017
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:12,560
moved more
1018
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,355
assets before their time was up
because now they had a clear idea of
1019
00:42:17,355 --> 00:42:18,040
exactly, you
1020
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,160
know, down to the
second how much time they had left.
1021
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,640
So things like that
are really effective.
1022
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,416
And ultimately, with every campaign,
we try to test more and more
1023
00:42:26,416 --> 00:42:27,360
improvements to the
1024
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,378
user experience, whether it's gamifying
it more or, you know, changing
1025
00:42:31,378 --> 00:42:32,840
the copy or the
1026
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:33,760
user experience.
1027
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,840
The countdown timer, I recognize
also more and more everywhere.
1028
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,520
Yeah, it works.
1029
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,685
There's one app that kind of pulled
up the countdown timer, so it's
1030
00:42:45,685 --> 00:42:46,360
directly on the
1031
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,320
home screen under
the kind of reward bell.
1032
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,600
I'm like, oh, that
has to be the thing we test next.
1033
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,610
Just when you open the app, you're
going to see it counting down in
1034
00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:56,040
your face.
1035
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,040
I'm sure that's going to work.
1036
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,960
So until it doesn't,
for now it does.
1037
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,320
Maybe as a last part, let's
talk about your team structure.
1038
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,675
You mentioned like you have an
embedded growth team that does a little
1039
00:43:10,675 --> 00:43:11,680
bit of product,
1040
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,880
a little bit of
marketing, referrals, incentives.
1041
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,560
Can you elaborate
a little bit more?
1042
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,400
Where do you sit and how
does it play with product together?
1043
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,680
And what do you
have under your responsibilities?
1044
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,440
So I lead user acquisition
and then cross-sell and retention.
1045
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:35,297
And the team is divided into three
groups, one that's focused on user
1046
00:43:35,297 --> 00:43:35,720
acquisition.
1047
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:41,062
So that's more referrals, lead
generation and paid search and just
1048
00:43:41,062 --> 00:43:42,520
search in general.
1049
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,605
Then we have the teams that are more
focused on cross-sell and upsell
1050
00:43:47,605 --> 00:43:48,320
and retention.
1051
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,369
So that team is kind of split into
two with two distinct goals, but
1052
00:43:52,369 --> 00:43:53,160
their channels are
1053
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,590
primarily in-app channels themselves
and any kind of, again, incentive
1054
00:43:57,590 --> 00:43:58,920
campaigns or even
1055
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,960
improvements in
the app design and stuff like that.
1056
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,970
So each leader has their own goal,
but they work cross-functionally
1057
00:44:06,970 --> 00:44:08,560
with a product team,
1058
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,600
engineering and data science.
1059
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,224
And since we have product and data
embedded kind of within marketing,
1060
00:44:16,224 --> 00:44:17,480
it really gives
1061
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,600
us a lot more levers
that we can work with.
1062
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,986
And it also just gives us a bigger
pool of ideas to like you have the
1063
00:44:23,986 --> 00:44:24,480
perspective of
1064
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,240
people who have
a different specialty than you.
1065
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,754
And oftentimes their ideas are
things that we wouldn't necessarily
1066
00:44:29,754 --> 00:44:31,160
think of, but end
1067
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,240
up working super well.
1068
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:38,168
So that's been a model that's been
extremely effective for us and that
1069
00:44:38,168 --> 00:44:39,080
I would
1070
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,701
recommend to anybody who's trying
to figure out how to structure their
1071
00:44:41,701 --> 00:44:41,920
team.
1072
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,160
Give the market the product
control or product access, maybe.
1073
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:48,880
Don't do that with me.
1074
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:51,600
I would just destroy everything.
1075
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,200
But I personally,
I'm clearly a marketer.
1076
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,400
I'm really not into product.
1077
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,892
I mean, I have an idea when I see
an app and see the onboarding, this
1078
00:45:00,892 --> 00:45:01,480
will work, this
1079
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:02,344
won't work.
1080
00:45:02,344 --> 00:45:07,528
But giving me as a marketer product
responsibility, I think at least
1081
00:45:07,528 --> 00:45:07,960
for
1082
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,920
my person, it would be a fail.
1083
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,120
It's so effective.
1084
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,112
I think I really downplayed the
efficacy that or how much influence
1085
00:45:16,112 --> 00:45:17,240
the product design
1086
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,640
could have on, you
know, cross-sell for instance.
1087
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,861
But at the moment, I think that
the product design is the single
1088
00:45:23,861 --> 00:45:25,160
biggest lever that we
1089
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,560
have for cross-sell specifically.
1090
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,930
If you're in the user acquisition
world, I understand how like it
1091
00:45:30,930 --> 00:45:32,000
might not be as
1092
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,200
alluring. You're like,
yeah, sure, onboarding can help.
1093
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,560
But also it's onboarding.
1094
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,040
It's kind of an
annoying thing to work on.
1095
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,933
But when you think about cross-sell
and those types of down the funnel
1096
00:45:42,933 --> 00:45:43,840
conversions that
1097
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,797
you want, I think that the product
is where the most impact can be
1098
00:45:47,797 --> 00:45:48,080
had.
1099
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,735
So I've come to love and embrace
product, even though I started off
1100
00:45:53,735 --> 00:45:55,040
probably more like
1101
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,505
you and just being like, get people
like top of funnel, get them in
1102
00:45:58,505 --> 00:45:59,000
the door.
1103
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,577
Other people will figure out how
to how to get what they want out of
1104
00:46:02,577 --> 00:46:02,800
it.
1105
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,920
But they have the
biggest lever often, right?
1106
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,114
Like 1% conversion rate improvement
often has a bigger impact than
1107
00:46:09,114 --> 00:46:10,640
getting the CPM down
1108
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,847
by 10 cents.
1109
00:46:11,847 --> 00:46:17,080
Maybe as a last question, what
advice would you give to new leaders
1110
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,720
stepping into their first growth
or marketing leadership role?
1111
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:26,120
That's a good question because it's
not an easy transition to make.
1112
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,667
And for me, what really helped me
click was when I started to think of
1113
00:46:31,667 --> 00:46:33,040
myself as a pro
1114
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,440
athlete. I know that might
sound silly, but bear with me.
1115
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,560
So like a pro athlete, I want to win
as much as possible and I want to
1116
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:42,680
perform at my peak
1117
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,057
as much as possible.
1118
00:46:44,057 --> 00:46:48,880
And in order to do that, it's not
just about putting as many hours
1119
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,640
as possible in the
gym or training.
1120
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,489
Other things are important
to like studying, looking at your
1121
00:46:56,489 --> 00:46:57,800
competitors, like studying
1122
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,240
your own tape. You
really need to rest and recover.
1123
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,140
So like eating well and sleeping
and even just like your psychology
1124
00:47:05,140 --> 00:47:06,440
and being able to
1125
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,640
be level headed and calm
and able to make good decisions.
1126
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,200
All of these factors are
really important for an athlete.
1127
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,070
And they're really important as a
marketer as well, especially if you
1128
00:47:17,070 --> 00:47:18,360
want to kind of
1129
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,960
have good ideas
and be strategic and execute well.
1130
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:27,488
So that thinking of it that way
really helped me reframe how I thought
1131
00:47:27,488 --> 00:47:29,000
about work and rest
1132
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,240
and the importance of it all.
1133
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,240
And that also trickles
down to my team.
1134
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:38,375
So if we keep the sports analogy,
when you become a growth lead,
1135
00:47:38,375 --> 00:47:39,560
typically it's because,
1136
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,702
you know, maybe you're the star
on the team and like you're used to
1137
00:47:42,702 --> 00:47:43,600
taking all the shots
1138
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,760
and scoring all the goals
and everyone thinks you're great.
1139
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,680
And that's probably
why you're getting promoted.
1140
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,360
But in your new role as a
team lead, that's going to change.
1141
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,720
And the spotlight
is no longer going to be on you.
1142
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:56,408
It's going to be on the people
on your team if you're a people
1143
00:47:56,408 --> 00:47:56,600
manager.
1144
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,985
So now you're no longer the person
who's taking all the shots and
1145
00:47:59,985 --> 00:48:00,880
scoring all the goals,
1146
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,480
but you're more like the person
making the assists and making sure
1147
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:05,680
that the other players
1148
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,920
are in a position to
take the shots and score the goals.
1149
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,115
And it could be really hard to
get used to that transition of like
1150
00:48:12,115 --> 00:48:13,120
you're no longer the
1151
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,000
person in the limelight all the time.
1152
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,545
And it's hard to resist the temptation
of being like, oh, like I could
1153
00:48:18,545 --> 00:48:19,280
have taken the
1154
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,920
shot better myself or like if I
did it myself, it would be better.
1155
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,609
But now with the bigger team, like
the impact of your team is what how
1156
00:48:26,609 --> 00:48:27,160
you're being
1157
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:28,360
measured and how
you're winning.
1158
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,155
So it's more like, you know, if
you're the coach, how often your team
1159
00:48:32,155 --> 00:48:33,240
wins is now your
1160
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,160
measure of success, less so
your performance as an individual.
1161
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:41,094
So I think like getting used to
that transition and being able to
1162
00:48:41,094 --> 00:48:42,280
measure success in a
1163
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,960
different way is something
that takes some getting used to.
1164
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,026
But I find that that analogy is
really good to kind of remind me of,
1165
00:48:50,026 --> 00:48:50,840
you know, what
1166
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,966
success looks like in this new
role and how I can measure it for
1167
00:48:54,966 --> 00:48:56,440
myself now that I'm not
1168
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,120
having necessarily as many
executional campaign wins directly.
1169
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:02,800
I see it the exact same way.
1170
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:04,320
Thanks for confirming.
1171
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,960
I'm a big fan of
enablement of the team.
1172
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,332
Yeah, like I would rather take a
step back and let the team shine and
1173
00:49:15,332 --> 00:49:16,680
let them show what
1174
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,848
they are capable of and on their
way towards the goal, only give them
1175
00:49:20,848 --> 00:49:22,040
a little bit of
1176
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,205
direction and maybe share the
experiences that I've had, because most
1177
00:49:26,205 --> 00:49:27,720
of the time, at
1178
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:33,275
least in my company, I'm probably
a little bit significantly older
1179
00:49:33,275 --> 00:49:35,800
than most of the team
1180
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,440
members. And I've
seen a couple of more things.
1181
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,831
So this is just obvious that I can
share a couple of experiences that
1182
00:49:41,831 --> 00:49:42,800
I had on the
1183
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,600
way in my career.
1184
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:50,424
And hopefully this helps them to
go their way and really outperform
1185
00:49:50,424 --> 00:49:51,880
when doing their
1186
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,080
jobs. Right. So
I see the exact same way.
1187
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,160
Perfect. Natasha,
it was great talking to you.
1188
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,320
Thanks for coming
and joining us in Let's Talk Ads.
1189
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,320
I hope the audience also liked it.
1190
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,640
I guess they did. And
if you did, please contact Natasha.
1191
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,984
If you have more questions about
incentives and virality and how to
1192
00:50:11,984 --> 00:50:13,320
get more referrals
1193
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,960
on your product.
Yeah, that's it.
1194
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:16,960
Thanks for joining us.
1195
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:18,680
Thank you so much for having me.